View Full Version : Driving Qualifications & The Heirarchy
There's clearly a lot of enthusiasm and conversation regarding advanced driving of all varieties, what there doesn't seem to be, for me, is any clarity on what each level attains other than a higher quality of driving in general.
I'd also like to know what different police driving qualifications mean. Police always go on about how great their driving standards & skills are, but i've yet to see any summary on what it entails and why it's deemed a mark above the top notch of civilian training.
I'm of the understanding that IAM is good, but RoSPA is clearly the one to train for.
Would someone care to clarify for me please? I see no point in starting out on attaining a qualification that i genuinely don't know any scale of inherent value for.
And before people start, clearly any form of driving improvement training is of varied utility, but you wouldn't buy a meal without checking the contents would you?
I could type to you all day about this, but I give you the basic answers as I have not got much time.
Civilian driving qualifications are a great asset and probably the most useful tool to have in your driving tool box. Anyone who thinks their driving has no flaws is wrong, and won't have the attitude necessary to be able to improve and evolve their technique. If you have the attiude that there is always more to learn from driving then your already half way there. Some people are very naturally talented behind the wheel but there is no point having that talen unless you can utilise it properly at the right time on the road.
IAM is probbaly the most well known but has a reputation of "cordoys and braces". Unfortunately they manage to live up to this reputation. Its a good starting point but once you have passed the there is little to keep you on your toes or develop further. You can do a diploma with them.
Rospa are recognised as a far more flexible, varied and long term group. They like you to commentate and grade you bronze, silver and gold and require that you are tested (I think every 2 years) to maintian the grade.
Then you have your driver training days such as Don Palmer, Andy Walsh and groups like the HPC offering all sorts of limit handling training off the public road which you won't get with the civvy organisation.
As for police driving there are now a national level of 1 - 4, 1 being a basic driver ( A to B), 3 a response driver, 2 and advanced driver and 1 a pursuit trained advanced driver.
As for standards, the grading system above is not to be taken literally. "Advanced driving" means totally different things in civvy world and in police driving. There is also a great deal of variation in how the system breaks down, and it is totally different in each force area.
In some forces a basic driver would need to drive at a standard equal to or even above that of a civilian advanced driver. Also, no civilian advanced driver would ever be able to employ the use of exemtions afforded to police drivers (speed, red lights and keep left/right arrows). Therefore police driver training even in it's most basic sense is totally different to civilian advanced driving. If you are into AD and are researching it you may have heard or may here comments such as "A 'Rospa Gold' is the equivilant to a police response driver level" or similar such phrases that some like to come out with. Trying to qualify that statement is almost impossible, as you are comparing aples to pears. The sorts of drives involved are hugely different. Although the civvy institutions do use Roadcraft as a teaching basis and some encourage commentary, they won't be driving on a public road with the use of exemptions like police driving courses. On police courses you are driving as fast as it is safe to do and applying roadcraft tecniques at those speeds, as well as commentating and using other exemptions at the same time. I takes a while to master, but like anything, once done enough does become second nature.
There is, like all things in the job, an amazing amount of politics surrounding driving standards. The main difference between response drivers and advanced drivers in the job is the ability to pursue. Response drivers can pursue until such a point as an Level 1 driver takes over. Level 2 is basiclly a glorified response driver. The levels generally correspond to engine size. Anything over a 1.8 in my force causes panic, and generally is classified as a Level 1 car only... meaning for example a Level 2 or 3 driver who has had weeks of intensive training and has probably been driving police vehicles on a regular basis for years would not be allowed to drive it at all. We had an advanced driver from a county force transfer to us last year, and he had been driving ANPR car's in Herts for years. The Met would not recognise his training however and they have dropped him 2 grades. We recently aquired 2 unmarked ANPR car's where I work which are a very expensive tool equipped with 2 camera's and a load of technology ideal for taking scum off the road. However, it is a 1.8 diesel and has been classified as a Level 1 only. It is an estate and full of computers equipment and cops, so it is heavy, and is actually slightly slower than our 1.7 diesel Astra's driven by Level 3's. As a result these 2 cars sit unused, as there are no drivers to drive them.
If you really want to know more about police driving ask away, it is a fascinating subject and something I have always been interested. As for all standards being high, don't be fooled. There are some police drivers out there who are diabolical and a disgrace to the service.
intersting post James,
how long does it take to get to a level 1?
and are you planning to do that?
intersting post James,
how long does it take to get to a level 1?
and are you planning to do that?
There is no set criteria, the course comes out to the borough, the course is allocated. The allocation of courses varies not only from force to force, but borough to borough. In addition, the goal posts move continuously. A couple of years ago, it was compentency based application based whereby you had to score a certain amount of points per competence. It is now "at the discretion" of borough supervisors. Some boroughd have a ladder list first come first serve basis. Other boroughs have other means of allocation. But and here is the but, on borough, or on the frontline, Level 2 and Level 1 courses come once ina blue moon. On my borough and in general it averages out at around 4 courses per year, which are split between 4 teams. So thats 1 course a year per team with a possible 250 offciers who are elidgable.
The reason for this is courses are allocated where they are needed. General patrls dont really "need" police advanced drivers as there is little benefit to be gained from a response driver. A Level 1 and a Level 3 drivr going to the same call will arrive at the same time if they start together, so the cost to borough and the distribution of cost to the Met in terms of efficiency are questionnable. Therefore the very last courses that are available after allocation to all the specialist units are given to borough. Some years there are no courses, others there may be a few. Once you get off the frontline and specialise in a department, traffic, armed response, airports, any role where the skill is needed, the courses are more abundant because these units needs the courses and are prioritised to receive them. Generally an officer specialising in a unit that requires the skill can be trained anywhere from 6 to 12 months of joining. It would be exceptional if they had not had a course in 2 years.
I will do the Level 1 course, without a doubt, but not on team. I have tried and come close a few times, but I am now looking to specialise and so will await my oppurtunity. I was allocated a Level 2 course which I declined, as for me its all or nothing. I even kept the email to remind myself every so often that things can be achieved!
In regards to how long, it's not something that you have to work up for and wait for, like anything in the job, after 2 years, you are elidgable.
The driving system in the Met works along the lines of 2 years before you can start and become a basic, once thats done 6 months to apply to become response. At that stage you are authorised to use all exemptions, drive covert and marked cars and pursue in the initial phase etc. The police advanced courses are designed to polish and perfect the skills you alreay have as a response driver, and includes the additional pursuit aspect.
Annoyingly, it doesnt matter how good anyone is on any such course, as you only come away with pass fail on that particular course. Many people think you are graded as to your ability, but your not. Your grade reflects what training you have undertaken so far. You could be a model pupil on any course, but you can only pass it, you can't be given a higher classification based on your ability.
If you go on a "hammer course" enabling you to hold a certificate to safely use a hammer and end up building a palace, you still only get the hammer qualification. You won't get the palace certification until you get the palace course ;)
Ben-san
24-03-09, 10:01 AM
Eye-opening and insightful contribution Diz. I hear about this a lot from an old friend who is also on job, who also has frustrations about the amount of red tape.
@ C7, I guess the pressing question for me comes down to what value this high level of training has in the real world for people who are not emergency response drivers. Any thoughts on this Diz?
Well taking on any sort of driving training can assist you in a variety of ways. Ultimatley it will improve your overall awareness, observation, road positioning, mechanical sympathy and driving ability. There are differing techniques taught for different area's of the driving spectrum. Ultimately an advanced driver will put themselves in the right place at the right time to be able to deal with whatever may happen on the road.
For example, how do you use your eyes when you are driving on the road now, and how often do you check your mirrors? After years of driving, it is easy to become slightly complacent and many people find that they just spend their time "looking ahead" rather than utilising the entire scope of forward and peripheral vision. By scanning everything in front of you and constantly moving your sight over the distant and sides of your vision, you pick up and notice things that you may have missed before. It is amazing how effective your peripheral vision is, and you can trust it enough not to need to stare blankly forward.
Another example of enhancing your observation is to use observation links. You probably do this already but there are many interesting times that you may not have thought of. An observation link is using visual information form the road to anticipate what is coming up. A circular cluster of lamposts for instance may provide you with the exact location of a roundabout that may or may not be signposted. Further if the roundabout is on a twisty road you may then be able to gain information at how the road will twist prior to getting there. Other links include things such as using reflections from buildings in congested or narrow town centres, looking for gaps in hedges in country roads, noticing a blank canvas dead ahead on a long piece of road indicating it must veer off left or right at some point, chewed verges on a single track suggesting agriculteral vehicles use the road etc etc
Then there are the driving aspects such as using limit point analysis to judge and execute bends, positioning for vision on the road, overtaking technique, brake gear overlap, proper steering and gear lever grip, when to and when not to indicate to name but a few.
To the OP - does this help at all?
the driving doctor
02-04-09, 21:53 PM
Dizeee
Good to see you giving great advice out to the PN members - excellent stuff from you!
Would be lovely to meet up and have a chat someday.
Take Care - be safe!
Paul Ripley
The Driving Doctor
Yes no doubt cross paths at some point, I think I am here for the long term ;)
Redex R
07-04-09, 22:20 PM
Personally my long range observation on the road is tuned into vans with cameras poking out the back and also checking my mirrors regularly for anything that looks menacing and could develop blue lights... I once read about the method some motorcyclists use to read the road direction changes ahead by using the telegraph poles as reference in the distance , unfortunately this does not always work as the poles sometimes cross the countryside leaving the main roads , you can only imagine the consequences.
I have seen some diabolical parking from IAM members , still proudly displaying their badges on their cars , it seems to be a lack of will sometimes to carry out the things they have learnt and you can't always teach awareness can you ? surely thats something you either have or don't have to some extent ?
Some will be naturally more aware than others, but as with any skill, it is something that can be easily improved with a little guidance and recognition of personal strengths and weaknesses.
Bump - the OP has not posted since :-(
Loads of stuff to chat about, I am left in wonder.... Good 1st post but no response from the OP......
Bump - the OP has not posted since :-(
Loads of stuff to chat about, I am left in wonder.... Good 1st post but no response from the OP......
He's a busy boy Diz!
or he might have forgotten about it ;)
chevy-stu
06-12-09, 15:41 PM
I looked at doing the IAM course a while back but didn't pursue it because as you said Diz 'the belt & braces image' and definately got a very unwelcoming response when I enquired about info..
So I've been looking at the Rospa site, and intend on joining via a local group and do their test at some point..
Rospa are good, IAM unfortunatley are a bit "anoraky". The system of car control should be flexible, and sometimes it can be implemented far too rigidly by the IAM.
I have just come back from my Level 1 course so this is all very topical for me at the minute. I am still quite active on ADUK to keep my hand in and knowledge up to date as best I can.
Roadcraft
09-12-09, 16:49 PM
As said earlier, any form of driver training is good, whether its with the IAM or RoSPA or one of my Performance driver courses. as regards the IAM I agree with Dizeee, that they have always been a little bit anorak and blinkered in there approach to driving and the system, for example, they still enforce the Pull Push steering technique, even with all the evidence out there showing this not to be the safest or most efficient approach, Dizeee, what is your force teaching, TVP stopped teaching this as the only steering technique a long time ago, and started looking at a number of ideas including rotational etc. I have always, even back when I was an instructor with Thames Valley Police and now as Roadcraft coaching driving enthusiasts like your good selves, have always put a lot of emphasis on being flexible in the approach. Good luck with your RoSPA Chevy-stu, any questions or advice, or you fancy a days coaching, give me a shout, always happy to talk driving.
Ian
_________________
Roadcraft Driver Training Ltd
Helping you discover the real fun in driving
www.roadcraft-driving.com
07717 575400
As said earlier, any form of driver training is good, whether its with the IAM or RoSPA or one of my Performance driver courses. as regards the IAM I agree with Dizeee, that they have always been a little bit anorak and blinkered in there approach to driving and the system, for example, they still enforce the Pull Push steering technique, even with all the evidence out there showing this not to be the safest or most efficient approach, Dizeee, what is your force teaching, TVP stopped teaching this as the only steering technique a long time ago, and started looking at a number of ideas including rotational etc. I have always, even back when I was an instructor with Thames Valley Police and now as Roadcraft coaching driving enthusiasts like your good selves, have always put a lot of emphasis on being flexible in the approach. Good luck with your RoSPA Chevy-stu, any questions or advice, or you fancy a days coaching, give me a shout, always happy to talk driving.
Ian
_________________
Roadcraft Driver Training Ltd
Helping you discover the real fun in driving
www.roadcraft-driving.com
07717 575400
Its Hendon rules for me I am afraid so when on show it is only push pull. I must say that I like it, and for what we are doing it is perfect, as even at speed it is always smoothness that is sought so it suits. That said, track driving and defensive driving techniques such as J Turns / handbrake turns you could not dream of push/pull. And of course, being flexible and sacrificing system for safety any sudden steering inputs required on the road may in some cases need rotational. That said, it is best to avoid being in the scenario where you have to do anything suddenly ;)
I am sure we could have lengthy discussions Roadcraft - which suits me as I am a little obsessed, hence why I tried to rescuscitate what is a good thread :)
Roadcraft
09-12-09, 22:37 PM
Hi Dizeee.
I quite agree, there isn’t enough emphasis on the different steering techniques and the importance in using the right technique for the situation in a lot driver training nowadays, a lot of people slate the Pull Push method (especially one certain Lord Whitmore) saying its a derelict technique and it shouldn’t be taught anymore, for me its a fantastic technique that should be in the drivers tool box, as there are times it will be the most appropriate one to use. I do coach a lot of Tactical and evasive driving to VIP Close protection officers, and for the evasive elements such as the fast reverse - quick turn around - J turns etc, you would use it, but for the super smooth and systematic drive with your VIP sat in the back, you probably wouldn’t want to use anything else but, because of its smoothness and maximum flexibility. Like you said matey, we both probably could chat and bore for Britain purely on this subject, maybe catch up at the ace some time and continue over a drink fella
Ian
_________________
Roadcraft Driver Training Ltd
Helping you discover the real fun in driving
www.roadcraft-driving.com
07717 575400
Hi Dizeee.
I quite agree, there isn’t enough emphasis on the different steering techniques and the importance in using the right technique for the situation in a lot driver training nowadays, a lot of people slate the Pull Push method (especially one certain Lord Whitmore) saying its a derelict technique and it shouldn’t be taught anymore, for me its a fantastic technique that should be in the drivers tool box, as there are times it will be the most appropriate one to use. I do coach a lot of Tactical and evasive driving to VIP Close protection officers, and for the evasive elements such as the fast reverse - quick turn around - J turns etc, you would use it, but for the super smooth and systematic drive with your VIP sat in the back, you probably wouldn’t want to use anything else but, because of its smoothness and maximum flexibility. Like you said matey, we both probably could chat and bore for Britain purely on this subject, maybe catch up at the ace some time and continue over a drink fella
Ian
_________________
Roadcraft Driver Training Ltd
Helping you discover the real fun in driving
www.roadcraft-driving.com
07717 575400
First drinks on you, seeing as how long it could last ;)
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