View Full Version : Potential New project ....
thinking about all the cars i would like to own i suddenly realised that meeting your hero's can be a disappointment.
a 1959 car is never going to drive like a new one and i want a car that i'm happy to drive and will be reliable when i do.
so the 1959 300sl convertible (soft top version of the Gullwing) is for me one of the most beautiful things in the world.
I can't afford one at over £300k and even if i could would i drive it?
However there are a few companies that do kits for them.
Now i hate the modern ferrari recreations i mean a 360 based on an MR2 just doesn't look or sound right plus there are a lot of 360's around.
However a classic car is a different matter (or am i just kidding myself?)
if i could have the 300sl and drive it too then would that not be a good thing?
so...the company is here
http://www.lonestarclassics.com/lsc-kit-cars-replicas/lone-star-classics-ls300-kit-car.cfm
thanks to Fiona (who else? :) ) for finding it for me.
now, could it be made to a quality high enough so it looks good and goes well?
or am i just dreaming?
and (MARK!!!!) how long would it take and how long would it cost tobuild something like this (excluding parts that i'd need to buy of course)
Don't forget the shipping for the kit as the company are based in the states. From the East coast shouldn't be too bad though.
verysideways
01-02-10, 20:25 PM
My only concerns would be:
(a) proportions - that will define how good it looks in the flesh. And i think it would be a flight over to see it in the flesh before you start handing over cash.
(b) a V8? I'm sorry, it may go well but it won't sound right. You can buy a complete C36 AMG for £4k and that would provide a reasonably performant straight six...
andrew.
01-02-10, 20:29 PM
I can afford one at over £300k...
rich b' :thumb:
Talk to Mark about proportions. He's talking about shortening my Spyder because the Banham body is slightly longer than the original.
You can choose whatever engine you like depending what performance/noise etc you want........I've got a skoda engine going cheap ;)
rich b' :thumb:
i assumed that was a typo missing off the 't ;)
...or wishful thinking :p
Ziggy Parker
01-02-10, 20:41 PM
her you go Harsh........ these are beautiful and no where near 300k. you could have 20 or 30 of these for 50k
I have talkd to this guy before...he's does some real nice things!
http://www.groupharrington.com/junior_files/mercedes.shtml
Ziggy Parker
01-02-10, 20:42 PM
if you do buy 20 of these you can give me one as a finders fee
dreamshack
01-02-10, 20:49 PM
I have not seen these in the flesh but I have heard good things.
If the body was moulded from the original, or close to it, then making it beautiful/ correct is the easy part.
As for the base vehicle I can only inform you from a personal viewpoint as an engineer and car nut. It seems pointless to me to build a plastic pastiche of something that will underperform in every way. However, things do not have to be that way, take a look at some of the D type Jag stuff available out there....
Unless you build the merc replica out of something with a blue oval and of seventies vintage it will be as good to drive as the original. But we have come a long way in the last few decades.
The idea of that shell draped over modern running gear is indeed a seductive one.
Personally I would be hunting down a late 90s or later vintage Merc/BMW/Jag to supply the running gear married to a bespoke chassis, preferably a spaceframe augmented backbone to make it handle, and whatever period or otherwise interior you are wanting.
As for cost... exclusive of parts, well under 10% of the cost of an original
Ziggy Parker
01-02-10, 20:50 PM
http://www.groupharrington.com/junior_files/mercedes.shtml
dreamshack
01-02-10, 20:52 PM
By the way, I wasnt talking about the noddy cars.... They are cool though!
Ziggy Parker
01-02-10, 20:54 PM
lol noddy thinks so.
Elliott
01-02-10, 21:00 PM
Well, some of you know my little car. A Hawk Stratos replica.
For me, it's one of the most beautiful automotive shapes ever created. A timeless classic. I've wanted to own one ever since I saw a photo of a Grp4 car in the mid 70's.
Buying an original was out of the question. But, after a health scare I pushed the 'f*** it' button and bought the very next best thing that I could find.
She's not an MR2 with a Ferrari bodykit stuck over it. She's a hand built recreation of a real Stratos. The car is so perfectly in proportion that many originals have replacment Hawk panels fitted to them. The Alfa V6 puts out the same power roughly as the original Dino and they are as "challenging" to drive as the originals ever were - just ask The Stig. ;)
I never try to pass her off as real - even though she's badged up as a Lancia - as, a) most people don't know what she is and, more to the point, don't care and b) those that do care know that the originals are all left hookers. Whenever I'm asked, I always give credit to the doctor, Roger Donnan who built her over twenty years ago. I'm in awe of the effort that he put in in building her. It was one of the first and he had to poineer many techniques to get the car completed.
I love her to bits and smile whenever I set eyes on her. She lifts my spirits when I drive her.
One day she will evolve into a full on Grp4 machine. But, for the moment, I'm delighted with my Stradale replica.
For me, the aesthetics of a car are just as important as its driving characteristics.
My little Stratos rep. looks wonderful and is plenty involvin enough for an old codger such as me.
:)
dreamshack
01-02-10, 21:09 PM
The Hawk kits - and kits does not do them justice, are some of the finest on the market. The Cobras (OK common now, but they do some very fine variants) they do are also stunning.
Again, replica seems a mute term when you consider the outstanding performance and daily reliability your car offers in comparison to the original Stratos, sometimes imitation is more tribute than rip off, and more refined with the pasage of time than the original...
Sorry for waxing lyrical, I am slightly drunk, had a ride of terror with employeee for several hours today...
had a ride of terror with employeee for several hours today...
Why do you think I closed my eyes and karen stuck her head in a book ;)
Elliott
01-02-10, 21:12 PM
Very kind of you sir.
:thumbup:
Ok, I know this is a very girly question but what colour would you paint it? :D
ok....so yes i did mean i can't afford one...
if i did this, it would have to be done properly, so the performance, handling reliability etc would have to be spot on as would the dimensions.
the costs projections are rather seductive and the value would be irrelevant bearing in mind i'd be unlikely to sell it.
hmmmmmmmmm
actually Elliot, it was your hawk and your story as well as Fiona that initially put me around to this way of thinking.....love cars that look stunning but work as well!
Peter...i wish i was small enough to fit in it!
chevy-stu
02-02-10, 01:49 AM
...The idea of that shell draped over modern running gear is indeed a seductive one.
Personally I would be hunting down a late 90s or later vintage Merc/BMW/Jag to supply the running gear married to a bespoke chassis, preferably a spaceframe augmented backbone to make it handle, and whatever period or otherwise interior you are wanting....
Sounds like the way to do it.. ! It should be possible to live with reasonably depending on what you expect.
As long as you accept you'll still be driving a car with 50 year old design, ergonomics and proportions, even though it'll be all new..
(I've been in totally rebuilt from scratch restored 67' camaro, and whilst it was a brand new car in almost all respects, the windows still leak and whistle at speed, the dashboard still reflect light weirdly, the screen doesn't clear cos the vents are too small and numerous other original design faults... )
Why not buy a rough late 50s190sl and have the body modified somewhat to resemble a 300sl and add modern running gear.
Why not buy a rough late 50s190sl and have the body modified somewhat to resemble a 300sl and add modern running gear.
What would one of those cost Andy?
Sods Law
03-02-10, 22:13 PM
I think kit cars and replica's have their place unfortunately a 300SL for me isnt one that fits..... I would always feel that it just wasn't the dream and I'd rather keep it that way, like a MR2 355 leave the MR2 and Dram the 355 for me....
Some things where right the first time
Just my 2p
I think kit cars and replica's have their place unfortunately a 300SL for me isnt one that fits..... I would always feel that it just wasn't the dream and I'd rather keep it that way, like a MR2 355 leave the MR2 and Dram the 355 for me....
Some things where right the first time
Just my 2p
I do see you point, however with only a few made and the current price of these around £350k, i see it as something similar to a cobra...mor kits around than real ones but they are produced because of the beauty of the original.
I think kit cars and replica's have their place unfortunately a 300SL for me isnt one that fits..... I would always feel that it just wasn't the dream and I'd rather keep it that way, like a MR2 355 leave the MR2 and Dram the 355 for me....
Some things where right the first time
Just my 2p
I don't see any point in making a replica of a modern high performance car because, you're right, it will never quite be as good and will just remind you what you are missing. Also when you look at the price difference between some of them £25k for an MR2 based F360 replica! You can pick up 360's for about 50k now, give it a couple of years more depreciation and save for a couple more years and you have the real thing! or buy a 308 for 20k and have some change for servicing costs!
Classics are a different thing though and it doesn't even have to come down to a cost thing. You can have your dream classic car but without the downside of classic reliability, performance, handling and rust issues!
Austin Healey 3000's and Sebring SX's are very similarly priced. I love the lines of the Healey and I could have bought the real thing but I chose the Sebring. The reason for that being I wanted a car I could use every day and would perform and handle better than the real thing. I'd never owned a fibreglass car before but that has turned out to be one of the best things about the car. It doesn't rust and you don't pick up the little dings that you do on a metal body, it takes quite a whack to do any damage to a well made fibreglass shell. I've had a mitsubishi gallant pull out in front of me and a van ram me and neither one left a mark on the body work! The only downside is that people have an annoying habit of banging their fists on your car because they don't believe it's not metal!! Don't do it people! You wouldn't like it if I thumped your car!
Then there is the modern performance. My car still has a 3 litre straight six, so it looks and sounds like the original, the difference is that mine is a more modern Nissan 280z lump which seriously out-performs the original. I was a member of the Austin Healey club with my original '65 sprite when I bought this car and I went from having the slowest car in the club to the fastest overnight! There was the odd person who turned their nose up refering to it as the "Tupperware Healey" but on the whole it was very well received as a modern tribute to the classic model.
What would one of those cost Andy?
Off the top of my headand grasping out of thin air:
You can get a rough 1950something 190sl for less that 10k,
I recon to build would cost between 20 and 40 depending how radical and modern you get.
For less than £50k I recon you could have a pretty unique 1959 SL mercedes that could be a blast to drive and would certainly attract a bit of attention.I fancy having a bit of that myself,if I didnt have another project on the go.
There was a restored one at MBworld a few months back.
Standard one
http://www.benz-barn.com/main/images/mb_190SL_w121.jpg
Pimped one
http://rides.carcraft.com/ride/1006269/jellybeanhotrod/1959/mercedes-benz/190sl/index.html
Not alot different from this
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attachments/international-automotive-scene/129279d1240676078-2009-gullwing-america-300sl-panamericana-concept-wooow-gull.jpg
You can almost see where the Maclaren SLR came from
This ones on a BMW for some reason
http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/jpg/200701/bmw-z3-customized-to-3w.jpg
Someone doing it already though onto an SLK
http://boneyardclassics.com/1959_mercedes_custom_project
Someone doing it already though onto an SLK
http://boneyardclassics.com/1959_mercedes_custom_project
So when they're done do you think they'll put the '05 body on the '59 car so it looks like a new car but handles like shite, then sell it on to some unsuspecting idiot :D
:D
that one on the BMW is stunning!
Mark's the expert on this(correct me if I'm wrong Mark) but from what I gather....
You can base it on what ever you want or build it from scratch to your own spec which could mean a purpose built chassis or light weight space frame and whatever running gear you choose . If you build it from scratch then you have the SVA to contend with which complicates things but then you could register it as whatever you want on the log book. ie: a Harsh 300 sl ;)
Alternatively you pick a modern car that you like the handling and performance of, strip the body off and replace or modify to 300sl looks. On the log book it would remain whatever your donor car was but "modified"
Either way I would be inclined to go with the fibreglass body that is already being produced in the states. Apart from the other benefits mentioned in my last post, it's much lighter weight meaning much quicker :D Plus I would have thought it would work out the better option financially too as making or modifying new panels takes a lot of time and effort to get right.
Here's some originals for comparison
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C124935/
http://www.prewarcar.co.uk/pre1966/show_postwar_car.asp?car_id=209985174
and some really interesting (anorak) info, including a diagram of the space frame used in the racers!
http://www.silverstarrestorations.com/300SL.htm
The biggest difference I can see is the eyebrows over the wheel arches and the windscreen/hood but these are all things which can be modified to get the look right.
Ok, I realise I'm taking over this thread but look what I found :drool5:
Now here are some seriously cool cars!!
http://www.silverstarrestorations.com/other_m_b__racers_.htm
Have you considered the retro race look? It would certainly look way more than a replica then! ...and you don't drive with the roof on anyway, right?
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/363/Mercedes-Benz-300-SLR-Roadster.html
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff144/flossie007/cars/Mercedes-Benz-300-SLR-Roadster_1.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff144/flossie007/cars/ombr-2.jpg
:drool5:
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/large/363/Mercedes-Benz-300-SLR-Roadster_2.jpg
Nice isn't it. :yes: That's the car Stirling Moss won the Mille Miglia in. :boing:
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