View Full Version : 4wd systems on small off roaders
I'm looking at getting a 4x4 for snow and ice driving but has to be small enough to get into my garage. help needed people.
Suzuki jimny:
has low range box and in 4wd mode ive been told it locks the front diff to the back one. Ive also been told it has a rigid back axle. Can anybody confirm if it locks all 4 wheels together which is what i want. been told its the best little off roader
toyota rav 4
no low range but with with fulltime 4wd. front wheel drive till wheels lose traction and vacum driven engagement of rear wheels. no info on if it has anything but open diffs. this is worse reviwed for off roading
freelander
no low range but the 4wd is done by haldex which are quite good. it works the same as the rav 4 aparently but i cant find out if the front and back diffs are limited slip and if the 4wd mode locks the front and rear.
it also comes with hill decent control like the large land rovers. this is the best equipped which is nice but is it better off road than the jimny?
how about one of the newer Pandas?
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/200949347443994/sort/priceasc/usedcars/make/fiat/model/panda/postcode/nw17hy/page/1/keywords/4x4/radius/1500?previous=%2Fsearch%2Fresults%2Fusedcars%2Fpos tcode%2Fnw17hy%2Fradius%2F1500%2Fmake%2Ffiat%2Fmod el%2Fpanda%2Fkeywords%2F4x4%2Fsort%2Fpriceasc%2Fpa ge%2F1&logcode=p
or an Audi A3?
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1349311.htm
verysideways
11-01-10, 10:20 AM
Chris,
You're going to struggle to find anything which locks all four wheels together.
That means either something with two lockable diffs and no centre diff, or something with three lockable diffs.
Old Range Rovers had one lockable diff. My cousin's Jeep has two lockable diffs (aftermarket fitted).
Having said all that, i've been out and about in lots of different things and the only thing i never got stuck in was my old Suzuki SJ.
It weighs nothing, has reasonable axle articulation, chunky tyres, and a low range transfer box. The few times when it threatened to get stuck i used left foot braking to stop the airborne wheels from spinning up which then allowed the wheels which were still in contact with the ground to actually push me out. No lockable diffs, just a little bit of 4wd know-how.
As for the choices - the Panda is great but not a proper 4x4. The Freelander is the worst built car in the world. The Jimny is a cracking little car and is a more capable 4x4 than a Rav, but it depends on how much off-roading you're going to be doing.
If you only want this for snow and ice i suggest you forget the 4x4 idea and spend some money on a set of wheels and winter tyres for one of your existing fleet. In snow and ice, a BMW 3 series on winter tyres will do better than a Landrover on summer tyres (i'm not kidding!).
If you're coming to the Ace tonight i'll be happy to discuss it further with you...
bachi, yes i remember the panda was on top gear at one point. as the same as the quattro system i thought that if i get an extra car i might as well go the full hog and get specially designed 4x4.
cheers pete, i was originally thinking about getting a set of 15 inch orginal wheels and winter tyres for the s-type but surely 4 wheels driven would be better? I would definately buy off road tires for it imediately as ive seen what winter tires can do on the continent.
verysideways
11-01-10, 12:51 PM
Ah, so you actually want to buy another car?
I've seen 2wd cars on proper winter rubber do some stuff that i wouldn't have thought possible. The sort of stuff you or i would be able to do in rain in a normal car but wouldn't consider in snow and ice (i'm thinking hills here particularly, but also cornering).
I think we need to discuss this evening :D
Who needs 4wd? If you want to play in the snow buy a Beetle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUnEbNgHFco&feature=player_embedded
verysideways
12-01-10, 17:42 PM
Who needs 4wd? If you want to play in the snow buy a Beetle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUnEbNgHFco&feature=player_embedded
Oh my god, i was talking to someone at the Ace about that video!! Mental :)
The Baja club have been out playing in the white stuff
http://www.bajaclub.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6157&hilit=
but thats cheating thats snow, its the ice thats the real issue!
verysideways
12-01-10, 20:54 PM
Only thing which deals with ice is studded tyres.
A 2wd car in winter tread is still going to do better than a 4wd on summer tyres.
verysideways
12-01-10, 20:59 PM
http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/stillatthewheel/archive/2010/01/08/just-how-good-are-winter-tyres.aspx
Only thing which deals with ice is studded tyres.
A 2wd car in winter tread is still going to do better than a 4wd on summer tyres.
but a 4x4 with winter tires are better surely :)
The Beetle has an odd camber to the rear wheels (top leans in, bottom out-is that positive or negative camber?) Anyway, I may not know the techy stuff but I do know that it makes it very good at digging itself out of sand, mud and apparently snow too. That's why so many beach buggies, sandrails etc are Beetle based :)
verysideways
12-01-10, 22:57 PM
Negative, and yes beetles are brilliant! Especially the 6 cylinder air-cooled ones from the 1990's :D
Couple of thoughts on this for you,
The Freelander Haldex system is very similar to that on the Volvo XC90, it doesn't have locking diffs, but it uses the braking system to simulate a lock of sorts, (at least it does on the Volvo), we were demonstrating the cars to potential customers at Blenheim Palace, and one of the obstacles we had was a twist ramp that lifted the front right and the rear left wheels so the opposing wheels were off the ground, this is the easiest way to stick a 4X4 even with a central lock, but the XC just used the brakes to lock the wheels with no traction so that drive went to the still grounded wheels and the cars just repeatedly drove away with no drama, quite impresive.
The other is that as previously mentioned if you want real traction in ice then spike tyres are the absolute business, for this country 3mm short spikes would be best, (and they don't put as much pressure on the wheel bearings), I got the chance to do passenger rides last year in a Chevy Lacetti touring car on a frozen lake, (long story but a mega day), and on 7mm long spikes it had more braking traction than on normal tyres on dry tarmac!!
Hope this helps.
thanks stuart
very impressive stuff about the studded tires. Need to find out if they are legal and that may negate the need for a new car just a new set of wheels.
verysideways
20-01-10, 16:23 PM
You don't need studded tyres in this country, decent winters would deal with what we've just had (and that may not happen again for another 30 years). Plus studded tyres on tarmac are awful, and even in the worst of the weather we've had recently it was only side roads that were covered, the mains roads were basically clear tarmac.
Oh, and the XC90 is a great car, but the Freelander is a steaming pile of _______ :D
A very good point about spikes on tarmac, not a lot of fun, I do think that location plays a small part in whether they are of use here as in some of the areas around me you can happily drive round all day and not see a gritted road, but lots of very thick icy ones.
this is true, in some way this is where spiked snow chains might make sense. you can leave them on till you get to tarmac then stop and take them off.
verysideways
20-01-10, 20:56 PM
Taking chains on and off is a pain in the bum, trust me :)
When we're in sweden, the road vehicles we use are fitted with winter snow/ice tyres, they have wide tread blocks and very smal 1mm dome studs, the amount of grip is just staggering on snow compared with normal winter tyres but they are also perfectly useable when we drive down to the less snowy parts near stockholm to collect our guests, perhaps a good solution for this country.
Not sure of make or codes but if you're interested in them I'm going back out in 3 weeks and will get the details for you
Stu.
When we're in sweden, the road vehicles we use are fitted with winter snow/ice tyres, they have wide tread blocks and very smal 1mm dome studs, the amount of grip is just staggering on snow compared with normal winter tyres but they are also perfectly useable when we drive down to the less snowy parts near stockholm to collect our guests, perhaps a good solution for this country.
Not sure of make or codes but if you're interested in them I'm going back out in 3 weeks and will get the details for you
Stu.
yes, please. Though I expect that I might have to import them (if you have a swedish supplier contact number that would be great also), I dont think anybody would stock them in the uk.
I'll let you know, our advance guard (for want of a better discription) goes out there to set up in a weeks time, I'll ask them to send me the info.
Stu.
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